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#### Saṁyutta Nikāya
4. Saḷāyatana Vagga
44. Avyākata Saṁyutta

#### The Book of the Kindred Sayings
4. The Book Called the Saḷāyatana-Vagga
Containing Kindred Sayings on the 'Six-Fold Sphere' of Sense and Other Subjects
44. Kindred Sayings about the Unrevealed

#### Sutta 9

#### Kutūhala-Sālā Suttaṁ

# The Debating Hall[1]

Translated by F. L. Woodward
Edited by Mrs. Rhys Davids

Copyright The Pali Text Society
Commercial Rights Reserved
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[279]

[1][than][bodh] Thus have I heard:

Then the Wanderer, Vacchagotta, came to visit the Exalted One
and on coming to him
greeted him courteously,
and after the exchange of civilities
sat down at one side.

So seated, the Wanderer, Vacchagotta,
said to the Exalted One: -

"Master Gotama, some time ago,
on some former occasions,
when a number of sectarians of different views,
both recluses and brahmins,
who were Wanderers,
had met together
and were sitting in the Debating Hall,
this topic of talk arose: -

'Pūraṇa Kassapa[2] here,
who has a crowd of followers,
who is teacher of a crowd,
a well-known and famous founder of theories,[3]
one in high repute among the manyfolk,
when speaking of a disciple
who had passed away,
who had made [280] an end, thus describes his rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."

But if one of his disciples is a superman,
one who has won the highest gain,
when speaking of such a disciple
who has passed away,
who has made an end,
he describes him in terms of rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."'

■

And in like manner, Makkhali of the Cowpen here,
who has a crowd of followers,
who is teacher of a crowd,
a well-known and famous founder of theories,
one in high repute among the manyfolk,
when speaking of a disciple
who had passed away,
who had made an end, thus describes his rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."

But if one of his disciples is a superman,
one who has won the highest gain,
when speaking of such a disciple
who has passed away,
who has made an end,
he describes him in terms of rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."

■

And in like manner, Nāṭa's Son the Unclothed, here,
who has a crowd of followers,
who is teacher of a crowd,
a well-known and famous founder of theories,
one in high repute among the manyfolk,
when speaking of a disciple
who had passed away,
who had made an end, thus describes his rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."

But if one of his disciples is a superman,
one who has won the highest gain,
when speaking of such a disciple
who has passed away,
who has made an end,
he describes him in terms of rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."

■

And in like manner, Sañjaya, Belaṭṭhi's Son, here,
who has a crowd of followers,
who is teacher of a crowd,
a well-known and famous founder of theories,
one in high repute among the manyfolk,
when speaking of a disciple
who had passed away,
who had made an end, thus describes his rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."

But if one of his disciples is a superman,
one who has won the highest gain,
when speaking of such a disciple
who has passed away,
who has made an end,
he describes him in terms of rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."'

■

And in like manner, Kaccāyana of the Pakuddhas here,
who has a crowd of followers,
who is teacher of a crowd,
a well-known and famous founder of theories,
one in high repute among the manyfolk,
when speaking of a disciple
who had passed away,
who had made an end, thus describes his rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."

But if one of his disciples is a superman,
one who has won the highest gain,
when speaking of such a disciple
who has passed away,
who has made an end,
he describes him in terms of rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."

■

And in like manner, Ajita of the haircloth, here,
who has a crowd of followers,
who is teacher of a crowd,
a well-known and famous founder of theories,
one in high repute among the manyfolk,
when speaking of a disciple
who had passed away,
who had made an end, thus describes his rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."

But if one of his disciples is a superman,
one who has won the highest gain,
when speaking of such a disciple
who has passed away,
who has made an end,
he describes him in terms of rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."

■

Now Gotama the recluse,
who has a crowd of followers,
who is teacher of a crowd,
a well-known and famous founder of theories,
one in high repute among the manyfolk,
when speaking of a disciple
who had passed away,
who had made an end, thus describes his rebirth:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus.

So and so is reborn thus and thus."

But if one of his disciples is a superman,
one who has won the highest gain,
when speaking of such a disciple
who has passed away,
who has made an end,
does not describe him in terms of rebirth,
saying:

"So and so is reborn thus and thus."

But he describes him thus:

"He has cut off craving.

He has broken the bond.

By perfect comprehension of conceit[4]
he has made an end of ill."'

§

Of this matter, master Gotama,
I had doubt and wavering,
and I thought:

'How is the teaching of Gotama the recluse
to be understood in this matter?'"

■

"You may well doubt, Vaccha.

You may well waver.

Moreover, your wavering has arisen
on a doubtful point.

As to rebirth, Vaccha,
I declare it to be for what has fuel,
not for what is without fuel.[5]

Just as, Vaccha,
a fire with fuel blazes up,
but not without fuel,[6]
even so, Vaccha, do I declare rebirth
to be for what has fuel,
not for what is without fuel."

■

[281] "But, master Gotama,
at the time when a flame,
flung by the wind,
goes a very long way,[7]
as to fuel
what says the master Gotama about this?"

"At the time when a flame, Vaceha,
flung by the wind
goes a very long way,
I declare that flame
to be supported by the wind.

At that time, Vaecha,
the wind is its fuel."

■

"But, master Gotama,
at the time when a being
lays aside this body
and rises up again in another body, -
what does master Gotama declare
to be the fuel for that?"

"At the time, Vacoha,
when a being lays aside this body
and rises up again in another body,
for that I declare
craving to be the fuel.

Indeed, Vaccha,
craving is on that occasion the fuel."[8]

[1] Kutūhala-sālā. Comy. says it was a place where all sorts of sectarians met for debate. It was so called from the noise (kutūhala) that went on in debate, cries of 'What says he? What says he?' Cf. D. i, 179 (where see note to Dialog. i, 244); M. ii, 2.

[2] The six famous theorizers aro referred to.

[3] Tittha-kara, lit. 'ford-maker,' one who purposes to show the way, or ford, or landing-place to salvation. Cf. K.S. i, 93 n. In a bad sense it usually = a quack.

[4] Cf. supra. xxxvi, § 2

[5] For upddāna, fuel, basis, grasping or attachment, see K.S. ii, early chapters.

[6] From Sn. 1074:

Acci yathā vāta-vegena khitto
Aṭṭhaṇ paleti, na upeti saṅkhaṇ.|| ||

where Comy. says, 'It goes to its end, it is not reckoned to have gone in this or that direction.'

[7] Dūram pi. 'Even to the home of the Radiant Devas.' Comy.

[8] The Buddhist doctrine, that one is reborn by force of his last dominant thought at the moment of death, either from this world or from another world. This thought is called cuti-citta (decease thought). Hence on his death-bed a man is urged by his friends and relatives to fix his thoughts on profitable things, in order to be reborn accordantly. See the death-bed scene of Citta (supra). The khīṇāsava or Arahant, having no upādāna (fuel or grasping), has no thought attaching him to any object (kiñcana), so his flame flickers out for want of fuel.

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