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#### Saṁyutta Nikāya
3. Khandha Vagga
24. Diṭṭhi Saṁyutta
1. Sotāpatti Vagga

#### The Constituent Aspects of Individuality

#### Sutta 17

#### Hoti ca na ca Hoti Tathāgata Suttaṁ

# The Tathāgata Exists and
Does Not Exist

Translated from the Pāḷi
by
Michael M. Olds

[1][pts] I HEAR TELL:

Once upon a time, The Lucky man,
Sāvatthi-town revisiting,
Jeta Grove,
Anathapiṇḍika's Sporting Grounds.

There then The Lucky Man addressed the beggars, saying:

"Beggars!"

And the beggars responding "Bhante!"
The Lucky Man said this to them:

"There being what, beggars,
bound to what
adhering to what
does this view arise:

'The Tathāgata exists and does not exist'"?

"For us Bhante,
things are best resorted to
rooted in The Lucky Man,
channeled through The Lucky Man.

It would be good, Bhante,
if further explanation of this point
were given by The Lucky Man.

That which is said
by the Lucky Man
will be held in memory
by the beggars."

"Then give ear, beggars,
pay good attention!
I will speak!"

Then, the beggars saying
"Even so, Bhante!"
in response,
the Lucky Man said this to them:

"There being form, beggars,
bound to form,
adhering to form,
even thus does this view arise:

'The Tathāgata exists and does not exist.'

There being sense-experience, beggars,
bound to sense-experience,
adhering to sense-experience,
even thus does this view arise:

'The Tathāgata exists and does not exist.'

There being perception, beggars,
bound to perception,
adhering to perception,
even thus does this view arise:

'The Tathāgata exists and does not exist.'

There being own-making, beggars,
bound to own-making,
adhering to own-making,
even thus does this view arise:

'The Tathāgata exists and does not exist.'

There being consciousness, beggars,
bound to consciousness,
adhering to consciousness,
even thus does this view arise:

'The Tathāgata exists and does not exist.'

■

What do you think, beggars?

Is form permanent or impermanent?"

"Impermanent, Bhante."

"That which is impermanent —
painful or
pleasant?"

"Unpleasant, Bhante."

"That which is impermanent,
painful,
a thing subject to change —
without being bound to that —
can this view arise:

'The Tathāgata exists and does not exist'?"

"No indeed, Bhante."

■

"Is sense-experience permanent or impermanent?"

"Impermanent, Bhante."

"That which is impermanent —
painful or
pleasant?"

"Unpleasant, Bhante."

"That which is impermanent,
painful,
a thing subject to change —
without being bound to that —
can this view arise:

'The Tathāgata exists and does not exist'?"

"No indeed, Bhante."

■

"Is perception permanent or impermanent?"

"Impermanent, Bhante."

"That which is impermanent —
painful or
pleasant?"

"Unpleasant, Bhante."

"That which is impermanent,
painful,
a thing subject to change —
without being bound to that —
can this view arise:

'The Tathāgata exists and does not exist'?"

"No indeed, Bhante."

■

"Is own-making permanent or impermanent?"

"Impermanent, Bhante."

"That which is impermanent —
painful or
pleasant?"

"Unpleasant, Bhante."

"That which is impermanent,
painful,
a thing subject to change —
without being bound to that —
can this view arise:

'The Tathāgata exists and does not exist'?"

"No indeed, Bhante."

■

"Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?"

"Impermanent, Bhante."

"That which is impermanent —
painful or
pleasant?"

"Unpleasant, Bhante."

"That which is impermanent,
painful,
a thing subject to change —
without being bound to that —
can this view arise:

'The Tathāgata exists and does not exist'?"

"No indeed, Bhante."

■

"That which is seen,
heard,
sensed,
cognized,
attained,
yearned after,
pondered over in mind —
is that permanent
or impermanent?"

"Impermanent, Bhante."

"That which is impermanent —
painful or
pleasant?"

"Unpleasant, Bhante."

"That which is impermanent,
painful,
a thing subject to change —
without being bound to that —
can this view arise:

'The Tathāgata exists and does not exist'?"

"No indeed, Bhante."

§

"So then, beggars,
when in the student of the aristocrats
doubt as to these six positions has been abandoned,
doubt as to pain[1] has been abandoned,
doubt as to the arising of pain has been abandoned,
doubt as to the ending of pain has been abandoned,
doubt as to the walk-to-walk to the ending of pain has been abandoned —
this is said to be, beggars,
a student of the aristocrats
a stream-winner
one aimed at self-awakening."

[1] For details see my translation of SN 3.24.1 footnotes. All the suttas of SN.24 should be read (slowly!) together.

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